Rep deceived me into a new 12 month contract : what to do?

[DABhand]

Problem is cook, in most cases that is correct.

But with VM you pay for your services up front, so the month you dont pay you will receive services maybe for close a month then they will kick you in the nuts.

So in essence you have stolen from them, and small claim courts would accept that.


@ Everyone else, whenever you get into a contract with anyone always ALWAYS make sure your back is covered.

As said in another thread, have a get out clause, thusly if the service your paying for is bad then you can leave without repurcussions.

And as always a telephone contract is not worth a penny, if for some reason you have someway of recording calls you can for legal reasons but you have to explain to them that you are recording the call also or it becomes null and void.

When I just got a re-offer to come back to them, I asked them to send me out a paper contract (2 copies) with their signatures on it detailing whats involved I will sign both and send 1 copy back to them.

[BenMcr]

Originally Posted by cook1984

Wrong, wrong, wrong.

Outstanding bills with service providers do not go on your credit report. The only things that go on it are loans (including credit card debt, missed loan/card repayments etc). Utility bills are not recorded and so not affect your credit rating or ability to get service from other providers in any way.

Payments may not do but defaults certainly do - the calls that Virgin get from people with entries prove it (usually when applying for a mortgage)

Also

http://allyours.virginmedia.com/html...dit_check.html

We are entitled to carry out a credit check on you at any time. We may search the files of credit reference agencies which may keep a record of that search. Details of how you conduct your account may also be disclosed to such agencies.

As for taking legal action to recover the amount, they won't. To recover money they have to prove a debt exists. If you didn't sign a contract agreeing to the debt (which you certainly did not, because even if you did sign a contract it was for services not any kind of loan or debt) then they can't take legal action to make you pay. It's as simple as that.

If Virgin send you a bill for services recieved and you don't pay it that is a debt and Virgin are quite within their rights to recover the money.

A direct debit is a payment controlled by you to a company for services provided. You have told that company you no longer want it's services and have fulfilled the agreed contract. You are free to cancel the direct debit. Virgin cannot take money from your account without your agreement, and clearly you have withdrawn your agreement.

Indeed but cancellation of Direct Debit does not indicate the cancellation of services.

So if you 'just' cancel the D/D you will still be billed for services until the account is disconnected due to non-payment

I'm amazed at how little people know about this sort of thing.

I'm amazed how many people thinking ignoring stuff works.

Fine cancel the D/D - but you HAVE to cancel the VM account as well otherwise you are just causing more trouble

[Itshim]

Quote:
As for taking legal action to recover the amount, they won't. To recover money they have to prove a debt exists. If you didn't sign a contract agreeing to the debt (which you certainly did not, because even if you did sign a contract it was for services not any kind of loan or debt) then they can't take legal action to make you pay. It's as simple as that.
"If Virgin send you a bill for services recieved and you don't pay it that is a debt and Virgin are quite within their rights to recover the money."

I work in debit recovery - Sorry but creating a bill is not proof of order - I wish it was.
Virgin would have to show an signed order for the items billed. As to if they can in this case is a different matter.

[BenMcr]

A signed order? Does that means I don't have to pay for anything I order off the internet as I never sign for any of it

[Zhadnost]

Originally Posted by broadbandking

Its not a contract on the service just on the router and if you disconnect then they will charge you for the equipment i.e the router

Err, so the service isn't on contract, they just sent him a free router with 12 months support? Where do I sign?

---------- Post added at 13:30 ---------- Previous post was at 13:29 ----------

Originally Posted by zedsbb

As above..... I'm going to go to court if needs be. £80 at stake now and the principler that you can't treat customers with such conniving, deceptive, low life behaviour.

I didn't know it was bbk you spoke to.

[cook1984]

If Virgin send you a bill for services recieved and you don't pay it that is a debt and Virgin are quite within their rights to recover the money.

It's only a debt if you agreed to it being a debt. Clearly the op did not agree to it.

This is rather fundamental so I'll say it again: a debt can only exist if agreed by both parties. If one party questions it, the other has to prove the debt was agreed to, e.g. by producing a signed contract.

If you believe otherwise, then I'd like to inform you that you owe me £1,000,000. Pay up for I'm sending in the bailiffs.

Indeed but cancellation of Direct Debit does not indicate the cancellation of services.

Phone them and say you are cancelling your service. Do not ask to cancel it, tell them you are cancelling it. You are out of the agreed contract term, and did not agree to any further contracts or extensions. The burden of proof to show you agreed to another contract is on them, not you.

Originally Posted by Zhadnost

Err, so the service isn't on contract, they just sent him a free router with 12 months support? Where do I sign?

Yes, that's exactly what they did. They didn't ask him to agree to a new contract, they just agreed to send him a router.

The router remains their property and needs to be returned, although I think you could make a pretty good argument that it was sent to you as a gift. Normally if someone sends you something without first reaching agreement with you to pay for it or loan it, by law it is considered a gift. Many companies will read you the terms and conditions, or at least direct you to read them somewhere before loaning you things.

In the spirit of good will though I would obviously just send it back, I'm just making a point about how poor VM are with their management of contracts and agreements.

[BenMcr]

Originally Posted by cook1984

It's only a debt if you agreed to it being a debt. Clearly the op did not agree to it.

This is rather fundamental so I'll say it again: a debt can only exist if agreed by both parties. If one party questions it, the other has to prove the debt was agreed to, e.g. by producing a signed contract.

Virgin have services in the OP address - therefore the OP asked for services and agreed to pay for them. If he doesn't pay for them that debt is then an agreed debt.

Whether or not you pay them for the router is seperate dispute. But your advise to the OP was

Just cancel your direct debits, send the equipment back and see what they do. It's easier than going to court or wasting time on the phone with them.

So that would run up a debit for agreed services not paid for

If you believe otherwise, then I'd like to inform you that you owe me £1,000,000. Pay up for I'm sending in the bailiffs.

Go on then. But as I have never had any dealings with you - there is nothing of yours in my flat, nor have I paid anything to you in the past - you would have to prove I have even heard of you

A different situation to the OP - who has been recieving VM service, paying VM for services, and has VM equipment in their address

Phone them and say you are cancelling your service. Do not ask to cancel it, tell them you are cancelling it. You are out of the agreed contract term, and did not agree to any further contracts or extensions. The burden of proof to show you agreed to another contract is on them, not you.

Well I'm glad you get that you have to cancel the services with Virgin - that is not what you said earlier

[cook1984]

Originally Posted by BenMcr

Virgin have services in the OP address - therefore the OP asked for services and agreed to pay for them. If he doesn't pay for them that debt is then an agreed debt.

So, if you call Virgin, or BT, or anyone providing a utility service and ask to be disconnected and close your account, they can just refuse and you have no choice but to continue paying them?

Once the initially agreed contract period is up, you can cancel at any time. The contract may require a reasonable period of notice, typically maximum one month. After that, unless they have a bit of paper signed by you saying otherwise, they cannot continue to bill you.

So that would run up a debit for agreed services not paid for

Only if he agreed to them. Please show me where he said he agreed to starting another year long contract.

Well I'm glad you get that you have to cancel the services with Virgin - that is not what you said earlier

That is what I said earlier. Go back and read it. The OP said he told them he was cancelling.

[BenMcr]

Originally Posted by cook1984

So, if you call Virgin, or BT, or anyone providing a utility service and ask to be disconnected and close your account, they can just refuse and you have no choice but to continue paying them?

No of course they can't refuse - I never said they could

Once the initially agreed contract period is up, you can cancel at any time. The contract may require a reasonable period of notice, typically maximum one month. After that, unless they have a bit of paper signed by you saying otherwise, they cannot continue to bill you.

And at the same time you would have to prove that you gave them notice to quit.

If you can then obviously any fees after the notice period would be waived.

You couldn't just say 'I quit at the end of my contract' and then stop paying without either telling them or being able to prove you told them

Only if he agreed to them. Please show me where he said he agreed to starting another year long contract.

He didn't - which is why he can quit without service EDFs.

That is what I said earlier. Go back and read it. The OP said he told them he was cancelling.

I did - and I quoted what you said - which was 'Just cancel your D/D and see what they do'

[cook1984]

Originally Posted by BenMcr

And at the same time you would have to prove that you gave them notice to quit.

Registered post would be ideal, but even just fully itemised billing showing that you called them would be enough in practice. Okay, it doesn't prove you actually said you wanted to cancel to them, but since they don't record the calls they can't prove otherwise and any court would take your word for it on the balance of probabilities.

You couldn't just say 'I quit at the end of my contract' and then stop paying without either telling them or being able to prove you told them

Is that an echo I'm hearing?

He didn't - which is why he can quit without service EDFs.

So, you agree with me, you are just arguing to save face maybe?

I did - and I quoted what you said - which was 'Just cancel your D/D and see what they do'

Context, n.

1. The part of a text or statement that surrounds a particular word or passage and determines its meaning.
2. The circumstances in which an event occurs; a setting.

[zedsbb]

Well, I posted the details of my case on here along with the evidence. I know I am right and many of the people on this forum feel the same in the light of the evidence and more. We have seen the reps here, like BenMcr probably of the same ilk as the rep that lied to me, have not said a word about the issue in the light of the evidence and instead used semantics to obfuscate the issue instead.

l'll probably have to go to the small claims court. Hopefully truth, justice and honesty will prevail and VM liars will get a kick in the knackers

I'll say again: VirginMedia reps lie - always record your calls

[zedsbb]

Success! VM will refund the cost of the router £40 as I WAS deceived. Will be getting a cheque soon! Promised by head office after sending an email to neil birkett along with the recording of the VM lying rep. If I did not have this recording I would have not had any success, so the rule if to ALWAYS record your calls with VirminMedia or any other CSA over the phone.

[soulspawn]

congrats, after a years you got your £40 back, i would of given up long before that just had it done with, when i was on the phone they were nice enough and got everything moved over from the previous owner in no time, i can only imagine that guy isn't working there and always double check with them what is happening. ask them to repeat the conditions!

[pazor]

Congrats...That’s a kick in the balls to all the VM reps. How many other people are tricked into the secret 12 month contract.

[zedsbb]

Originally Posted by soulspawn

congrats, after a years you got your £40 back, i would of given up long before that just had it done with, when i was on the phone they were nice enough and got everything moved over from the previous owner in no time, i can only imagine that guy isn't working there and always double check with them what is happening. ask them to repeat the conditions!

I haveen't been fighting against them for a year! I left it for a bit, always knew I was in the right so knew I would get there in the end. I thought some of the VM reps on here would have sorted it, but they tried to muddy the waters instead and talked rubbish. I emailed VM a week or so ago to complain, got a snotty woman who told me she would not refund anything. Emailed Neil Birkett a few days later and it was sorted the next day! Better £40 in my pocket than VM's and a kick in the nads for deceiving customers.

The rule to learn from this is : VM reps lie - ALWAYS record you calls