Rep deceived me into a new 12 month contract : what to do?

[broadbandking]

Just checked for you and if customer relations send you a free router and you cancel before 12 months is up then you will be charged for the router.
Sorry mate btw this is a process so most people you speak to will advise you of this, they can only add the charge if you have raised a disconnection request.

[Stewie_Griffin]

Might have this wrong but if it was a new 12month contract and you cancelled you would be charged the rest of the contract period too, not just the router. I do know for certain that if you receive a free router and leave within the first 12 months you will be charged for the equipment. Theres no way around that.

[broadbandking]

Its not a contract on the service just on the router and if you disconnect then they will charge you for the equipment i.e the router

[zedsbb]

I spoke to CS today and got told that I have to pay the charge, he spoke to retentions too he claimed to confirm. I told him I'd like the complaint logged on the system. He looked at the past entries and apparently the person to whom I gave my disconnection notice has written in the notes that "I'd be happy to pay the £40 charge". I told him I would be happy to return the router, but no I can't do that either. You couldn't make this stuff up!

Originally Posted by Stewie_Griffin

Might have this wrong but if it was a new 12month contract and you cancelled you would be charged the rest of the contract period too, not just the router. I do know for certain that if you receive a free router and leave within the first 12 months you will be charged for the equipment. Theres no way around that.

No, I have been out of a contract for 2 years, I could understand it if I was in a contract and I wanted to leave early but that is not the case. I was about to leave for ADSL land and for a cheaper offer than what I was payng VM. But I decided to stay as I didn't want to tinker about with my network and connection. I was offered the router FREE by retentions as an incentive to stay, but now 7 months on the price has shot up to £20/month for 2MB which I don't need. Unwittingly I have been deceived and now have to pay for the router unless I want to stay with virgin for 12 months from the date I received the router. The rep did not tell me at anytime that I would have to stay for a minimum of 12 months if I took the router. As I was out of contract for 2 years, I would have been better off going to O2, saving 2.50 a month, getting 8meg instead of 2meg, no STM, free wireless O2 router. Instead I trusted this VM lying rep

Originally Posted by broadbandking

Just checked for you and if customer relations send you a free router and you cancel before 12 months is up then you will be charged for the router.
Sorry mate btw this is a process so most people you speak to will advise you of this, they can only add the charge if you have raised a disconnection request.

Thanks for looking into this. If this is the case, then the reps should inform customers of the terms and conditions of taking the equipment. As stated above, I was not informed, and to make the situation worse, my brother was about to leave VM also a few months after me, and he took up the wireless router offer from retentions too after I had done. So I have shafted him aswell as myself. This call was also recorded and this 2nd rep also did not tell us about the 12 months minimum term if he took the router or the £40 fee. This would mean that VM reps are systematically deceiving customers.

Originally Posted by broadbandking

Its not a contract on the service just on the router and if you disconnect then they will charge you for the equipment i.e the router

As above..... I'm going to go to court if needs be. £80 at stake now and the principler that you can't treat customers with such conniving, deceptive, low life behaviour.

[cook1984]

Just send the router back to them (anyone know the address for returns?)

The bottom line is that you never agreed to a new contract. You were never even told that there was one.

Just cancel your direct debits, send the equipment back and see what they do. It's easier than going to court or wasting time on the phone with them.

[BenMcr]

That is the worst thing to do. Never ever ever 'just cancel the D/D and see what they do' with ANY company you deal with

Virgin would continue to bill until the account disconnect due to non-payment, this would then be recorded on your credit file and Virgin would then take legal action to recover the outstanding amount

[beeman]

Originally Posted by BenMcr

That is the worst thing to do. Never ever ever 'just cancel the D/D and see what they do' with ANY company you deal with

Indead but not for the reasons stated. What i would do in this suituation is cancil with the approapate 30 days notice reminding them you dont owe the £40 remind them of the recoding do this by post and phone (send letter by recorded delivery), let them take the £40 via the dd (assuming all attempts to get CS to write this off fail)

Then you have 3 options.

1) Make a claim under the DD garentee for an incorrect Direct Debit (you get the £40 back from the bank who then claim it back from VM).

At this stage VM may decide to continue to pursue you for the £40 balance. At this stage formally dispute the charge reminding VM you have a recoding of the call with no mention of a £40 charge, if they still claim you own this money VM will most likly then pass your file onto a collections agency who will threaten court, inform the collections agency of the disputed charge and the recoded call, at this stage they will either close the file OR take the case to the county court if it gets this far MAKE SURE YOU ATTEND (if you dont you WILL get a CCJ), enter your recoding as evidence (along with recordings of ALL calls upto this stage and all written communications (sent by recorded delivery)) 90% chance you win, get your £40 back plus expenses (10% chance you loose have to loose the £40 plus pay VM's costs)

2) As soon as they take the money file a claim with the small claims court (court fees of (i think £120) apply) 9 out of 10 times they dont show or offer to settle, you win by default (you get your £40 + court costs + expenses), get to send the baylifs into VM's office to collect cash and goods upto the judgement value (plus costs of collection) VERY SATASFYING.

IF they do show enter the recoding (and all other recordings) plus all written communications into evidence 9 out of 10 times you win (same as above applys), if you loose then the same applys to looseing in senario 1 (but costs are lower due to being small claims court)

3) let them take the £40 forget about it never use VM again.

IF it were me i would choose option 2 (in fact i have (not with VM) a few times in simmilar suituations) however you MUST remember with options 1 and 2 there IS a chance of loseing, and doing so comes with costs.

OF CAUSE exaust ALL possiable avenues BEFORE it comes to choosing between option 1,2 or 3

Citzens advise beuro and the office of fair traiding should bee your first contacts before finally agreeing to the cancillations (you could also try OFCOM but there generally usless when dealing with indivudual cases). CAB and OFT are the orginzations designed for these cases.

Just to add to this if you choose any of the above options I TAKE NO RESPONSIABILY FOR THE OUTCOME. there is always a chance of losing and you should take this into account in your desision making.

[BenMcr]

That seems completely overblown!

I would never recommend allowing a disputed amount to be taken and then claimed back - if you don't agree with a balance cancel the D/D before it is taken. Just don't expect a D/D cancellation alone to close the VM account

[WokStation]

I've not listened to the recording, but a couple of points...

If you didn't agree, they cannot enforce it.

If they claim you have agreed to the contract, ask them for proof. It is for them to prove that you did.

If they attempt to amend your credit file, add an adjustment and then take VM to small-claims to recoup any costs plus a little extra for harrassment.

Don't speak to the frontline guys, ask for a manager. Frontline guys rarely have much power. When you get through to the manager, make sure you explain that VM are trying to claim you are tied to a contract to which you never agreed, ask them for proof of this supposed agreement and make it clear that you'll take this to any regulator you need to in order to get it sorted - also that you won't bawk at taking them to small claims yourself.

Sending you the router is not proof of your agreeing to a contract. They need to provide either your signature on a contract, or a recording of you agreeing verbally. Anything else simply isn't proof.

[BenMcr]

It isn't a contract!!!

Its 'If you disconnect within 12 months of recieving a free wireless router you will be charged for £40 for the wireless router.'

If it was a new contract Early Disconnection Fees for the services themselves would also apply

[WokStation]

Originally Posted by BenMcr

It isn't a contract!!!

Its 'If you disconnect within 12 months of recieving a free wireless router you will be charged for £40 for the wireless router.'

If it was a new contract Early Disconnection Fees for the services themselves would also apply

That is a binding agreement, thus a contract. If it's not a binding agreement, it cannot be enforced and the user doesn't have to be obligated by it.

So which is it? Contract, or meaningless waffle? It's one of them...

[broadbandking]

@Wokstation, front line guys have little power, how little you know about call centres, you have to remember us front line guys deal with customers day in and day out and intrusted to make the correct choice this is what our job is.

[WokStation]

Originally Posted by broadbandking

@Workstation, front line guys have little power, how little you know about call centres, you have to remember us front line guys deal with customers day in and day out and intrusted to make the correct choice this is what our job is.

I used to work in one, so yeah, I do know that the frontliner's power is limited compared to that of the centre manager.

You cannot make many of the agreements that the manager can, simply because you don't have the power of that discretion.

PS, there's no R in my name. I'm a cooker, not a computer...

[zedsbb]

Originally Posted by cook1984

Just send the router back to them (anyone know the address for returns?)

The bottom line is that you never agreed to a new contract. You were never even told that there was one.

Just cancel your direct debits, send the equipment back and see what they do. It's easier than going to court or wasting time on the phone with them.

Won't let me send it back to them. VM probably buy these (WGR614 which are not very reliable routers) for around 10 quid, so they'll enjoy getting the 40 quid out of me!

Originally Posted by beeman

Indead but not for the reasons stated. What i would do in this suituation is cancil with the approapate 30 days notice reminding them you dont owe the £40 remind them of the recoding do this by post and phone (send letter by recorded delivery), let them take the £40 via the dd (assuming all attempts to get CS to write this off fail)

Then you have 3 options.

1) Make a claim under the DD garentee for an incorrect Direct Debit (you get the £40 back from the bank who then claim it back from VM).

At this stage VM may decide to continue to pursue you for the £40 balance. At this stage formally dispute the charge reminding VM you have a recoding of the call with no mention of a £40 charge, if they still claim you own this money VM will most likly then pass your file onto a collections agency who will threaten court, inform the collections agency of the disputed charge and the recoded call, at this stage they will either close the file OR take the case to the county court if it gets this far MAKE SURE YOU ATTEND (if you dont you WILL get a CCJ), enter your recoding as evidence (along with recordings of ALL calls upto this stage and all written communications (sent by recorded delivery)) 90% chance you win, get your £40 back plus expenses (10% chance you loose have to loose the £40 plus pay VM's costs)

2) As soon as they take the money file a claim with the small claims court (court fees of (i think £120) apply) 9 out of 10 times they dont show or offer to settle, you win by default (you get your £40 + court costs + expenses), get to send the baylifs into VM's office to collect cash and goods upto the judgement value (plus costs of collection) VERY SATASFYING.

IF they do show enter the recoding (and all other recordings) plus all written communications into evidence 9 out of 10 times you win (same as above applys), if you loose then the same applys to looseing in senario 1 (but costs are lower due to being small claims court)

3) let them take the £40 forget about it never use VM again.

IF it were me i would choose option 2 (in fact i have (not with VM) a few times in simmilar suituations) however you MUST remember with options 1 and 2 there IS a chance of loseing, and doing so comes with costs.

OF CAUSE exaust ALL possiable avenues BEFORE it comes to choosing between option 1,2 or 3

Citzens advise beuro and the office of fair traiding should bee your first contacts before finally agreeing to the cancillations (you could also try OFCOM but there generally usless when dealing with indivudual cases). CAB and OFT are the orginzations designed for these cases.

Just to add to this if you choose any of the above options I TAKE NO RESPONSIABILY FOR THE OUTCOME. there is always a chance of losing and you should take this into account in your desision making.

Thanks for you detailed and excellent advice, option 2 is probably the one I will follow, my brother is going to be in the same position in a few months, think I'll wait until he disconnects and then do a joint action. His call recording is better than mine and starts pretty much from the start of the call.

Originally Posted by WokStation

I've not listened to the recording, but a couple of points...

If you didn't agree, they cannot enforce it.

If they claim you have agreed to the contract, ask them for proof. It is for them to prove that you did.

If they attempt to amend your credit file, add an adjustment and then take VM to small-claims to recoup any costs plus a little extra for harrassment.

Don't speak to the frontline guys, ask for a manager. Frontline guys rarely have much power. When you get through to the manager, make sure you explain that VM are trying to claim you are tied to a contract to which you never agreed, ask them for proof of this supposed agreement and make it clear that you'll take this to any regulator you need to in order to get it sorted - also that you won't bawk at taking them to small claims yourself.

Sending you the router is not proof of your agreeing to a contract. They need to provide either your signature on a contract, or a recording of you agreeing verbally. Anything else simply isn't proof.

Exactly as broadbandking stated "Its ......a contract on the router and if you disconnect then they will charge you for the equipment i.e the router"

I have been forced into a contractual situation without agreeing to it or being informed as to the terms and conditions. Totally beyond the pale!

Originally Posted by BenMcr

It isn't a contract!!!

Its 'If you disconnect within 12 months of recieving a free wireless router you will be charged for £40 for the wireless router.'

If it was a new contract Early Disconnection Fees for the services themselves would also apply

I find it disappointing that you have not at all condemned this devious kind of behaviour by VM reps, but instead use semantics to obfuscate things instead.

[cook1984]

Originally Posted by BenMcr

That is the worst thing to do. Never ever ever 'just cancel the D/D and see what they do' with ANY company you deal with

Virgin would continue to bill until the account disconnect due to non-payment, this would then be recorded on your credit file and Virgin would then take legal action to recover the outstanding amount

Wrong, wrong, wrong.

Outstanding bills with service providers do not go on your credit report. The only things that go on it are loans (including credit card debt, missed loan/card repayments etc). Utility bills are not recorded and so not affect your credit rating or ability to get service from other providers in any way.

As for taking legal action to recover the amount, they won't. To recover money they have to prove a debt exists. If you didn't sign a contract agreeing to the debt (which you certainly did not, because even if you did sign a contract it was for services not any kind of loan or debt) then they can't take legal action to make you pay. It's as simple as that.

A direct debit is a payment controlled by you to a company for services provided. You have told that company you no longer want it's services and have fulfilled the agreed contract. You are free to cancel the direct debit. Virgin cannot take money from your account without your agreement, and clearly you have withdrawn your agreement.

I'm amazed at how little people know about this sort of thing.