50Mbit Rollout Has Started

Originally Posted by deed02392

It's the sad truth, and it's also the reason they haven't bothered and probably never will bother to bring out some sort of upload+ package that would increase the upload on other existing packages. The truth is, all it does is increase potential bandwidth across their network, when 90%* of their customers wouldn't understand/care about the fact that it was there. However they haven't bothered to take into consideration the ever increasing 10%* of their customers who actually know what they're truly paying for. It's for this reason I'll be considering bethere if it ever becomes available in my area.

*Not actual statistics.

Ironically at one point there was in planning stages a upload+ package which would have a higher upload, but you can thank neil burkett for half of the money being cut for upgrades etc

[deed02392]

Thanks Neil Burkett.


Where does he live? I'd like to express my thanks physically.

[Ed2020]

Originally Posted by deed02392

Thanks Neil Burkett.


Where does he live? I'd like to express my thanks physically.

lol. Possibly a little harsh, but I can understand the sentiment!

I can *almost* see their logic behind this though (albeit flawed). Upstream requirements aren't understood by the majority of users. 50Mb downstream looks great on the adverts but only people with a reasonable understanding of how TCP/IP traffic works can appreciate claims about upstream bandwidth. Presumably from Neil Berkett's point of view spending money to enhance something that most of his customers won't necessarily notice isn't money well spent.

Ed.

[popper]

Originally Posted by TraxData

Ironically at one point there was in planning stages a upload+ package which would have a higher upload, but you can thank neil burkett for half of the money being cut for upgrades etc

you would think Virgin Media Neil and the US VM BOD would learn from the US comcast and their new policy since they introduced their DOCSIS3 50Mbit-D/5Mbit-U.

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/10...l#post34521967
"for current high-speed Internet access resident customers, as a result of the deployment, Comcast will nearly triple the upload speed of its 6mbps/384kbps Performance tier to 6Mbps/1Mbps and more than double the upload speed of its 8Mbps/768Kbps Performance Plus tier to 8Mbps/2Mbps, at no additional charge.
"

---------- Post added at 02:34 ---------- Previous post was at 02:22 ----------

BTW cablelabs just did six cable modems, for the new spec, following Wave 58
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/10...l#post34549341
"
six cable modems, marking the first consumer-side gear ever to be certified for the new spec, following Wave 58
....
"

but thats not quite right, as there was at least one CPE that got full 3.0 cert already on wave 56 i think it was...

[Druchii]

Originally Posted by popper

you would think Virgin Media Neil and the US VM BOD would learn from the US comcast and their new policy since they introduced their DOCSIS3 50Mbit-D/5Mbit-U.

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/10...l#post34521967
"for current high-speed Internet access resident customers, as a result of the deployment, Comcast will nearly triple the upload speed of its 6mbps/384kbps Performance tier to 6Mbps/1Mbps and more than double the upload speed of its 8Mbps/768Kbps Performance Plus tier to 8Mbps/2Mbps, at no additional charge.
"

---------- Post added at 02:34 ---------- Previous post was at 02:22 ----------

BTW cablelabs just did six cable modems, for the new spec, following Wave 58
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/10...l#post34549341
"
six cable modems, marking the first consumer-side gear ever to be certified for the new spec, following Wave 58
....
"

but thats not quite right, as there was at least one CPE that got full 3.0 cert already on wave 56 i think it was...

What are these "waves" ?

Originally Posted by popper

you would think Virgin Media Neil and the US VM BOD would learn from the US comcast and their new policy since they introduced their DOCSIS3 50Mbit-D/5Mbit-U.

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/10...l#post34521967
"for current high-speed Internet access resident customers, as a result of the deployment, Comcast will nearly triple the upload speed of its 6mbps/384kbps Performance tier to 6Mbps/1Mbps and more than double the upload speed of its 8Mbps/768Kbps Performance Plus tier to 8Mbps/2Mbps, at no additional charge.
"

---------- Post added at 02:34 ---------- Previous post was at 02:22 ----------

BTW cablelabs just did six cable modems, for the new spec, following Wave 58
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/10...l#post34549341
"
six cable modems, marking the first consumer-side gear ever to be certified for the new spec, following Wave 58
....
"

but thats not quite right, as there was at least one CPE that got full 3.0 cert already on wave 56 i think it was...

That article is a little wrong, the upload is now 2.5mbit for the 8mbit and 16mbit tiers on comcast...they also now offer a 20mbit/5mbit connection.

Your correct though, you'd think VM would learn, but then..this is VM we're talking about..and it all came down to "like we are gonna pay to upgrade the kit to support high upload speeds" "rather give myself a fat bonus" situation.

[Druchii]

Originally Posted by TraxData

That article is a little wrong, the upload is now 2.5mbit for the 8mbit and 16mbit tiers on comcast...they also now offer a 20mbit/5mbit connection.

Your correct though, you'd think VM would learn, but then..this is VM we're talking about..and it all came down to "like we are gonna pay to upgrade the kit to support high upload speeds" "rather give myself a fat bonus" situation.

How many fat bonuses can one person consume before the business dies though really?

Originally Posted by Druchii

How many fat bonuses can one person consume before the business dies though really?

Well personally i believe VM is very quickly turning into a "pump 50mbit out, make us look good to potential buyers, give ourselfs a big fat bonus then quickly f-ck off soon as its sold and let it die under different hands"

But, that is just my opinion

[Druchii]

Originally Posted by TraxData

Well personally i believe VM is very quickly turning into a "pump 50mbit out, make us look good to potential buyers, give ourselfs a big fat bonus then quickly f-ck off soon as its sold and let it die under different hands"

But, that is just my opinion

Sounds about right to me.

[popper]

Originally Posted by Druchii

What are these "waves" ?

it's just their name for the official "pay your fee and we will test it for complience to the spec and grade it".

with Docsis3 , they have set several official "testing days" or "waves" a year so as to progress the hardware in stages as quick as they can...

[Horace]

Originally Posted by deed02392

It's the sad truth, and it's also the reason they haven't bothered and probably never will bother to bring out some sort of upload+ package that would increase the upload on other existing packages. The truth is, all it does is increase potential bandwidth across their network, when 90%* of their customers wouldn't understand/care about the fact that it was there. However they haven't bothered to take into consideration the ever increasing 10%* of their customers who actually know what they're truly paying for. It's for this reason I'll be considering bethere if it ever becomes available in my area.

*Not actual statistics.

Upload plus is only available up to 2km from the exchange. So in effect very few people get close to the advertised speeds ergo they end up with much less contention problems. My max download speed on Be* would be around 5-6 Mb assuming my line quality was fine and I don't live out in the sticks.
Everyone on cable is capable of getting maximum upload and download speeds which makes contention a much bigger issue. When you also factor in the price of getting a phone line you end up paying the same for a much slower service with Be* if you take their top package.
Upload has always been a rare commodity on cable and will be for the foreseeable. If you desperately need much higher upload then a commercial package, probably costing around £600-£1000 a month would be your only real alternative.

[popper]

Originally Posted by Horace

Upload plus is only available up to 2km from the exchange.

So in effect very few people get close to the advertised speeds ergo they end up with much less contention problems.

My max download speed on Be* would be around 5-6 Mb assuming my line quality was fine and I don't live out in the sticks.

Everyone on cable is capable of getting maximum upload and download speeds which makes contention a much bigger issue.

When you also factor in the price of getting a phone line you end up paying the same for a much slower service with Be* if you take their top package.

Upload has always been a rare commodity on cable and will be for the foreseeable.

If you desperately need much higher upload then a commercial package, probably costing around £600-£1000 a month would be your only real alternative.

well, we are talking cable here and upload rates in this instance but even then your best Be* upload will provide even you with a far better real upload rate irespective of your lower download rate as stated.

a far better ratio and rate even than the currently proposed new 1.5Mbit upload rate of the 50Mbit VM package infact.

if they dont rethink the prime VM package, and at the very least better Be*'s best, by ay least a good 1Mbit+, thats at least 3.5Mbit upload if i remember Be*'s best at 2.5Mbit currently?, will just continue to profit at VMs expense.

as for the cable upload and it being "rare", its only rare due to the way cable has receaved competition protection, (we should open it up to allow 3rd party STB's and existing DOCSIS1.1/2.0 CM PCi/USB cards) and the way the cable sales teams have sold it for max short term profits, instead of long term product and consumer growth.

its perfectly possible to stop overselling the UBRs upgrade the cards and better re-seg the kit at any time,they chose not to.

the newest linecards and UBR kit they plug into etc, as i posted about on the older 50Mbit thread linked above, are the best price they have ever been , they provide far more ports today (compared to even just 2 years ago)and are perfectly capable of providing far better upload rates on the old Euro-Docsis1.1 per customer.

sure not everyone needs or more the case wants faster uploads, but for those that do , they are perfectly willing to pay,just as there are still more people that will pay for more than one cable modem per account ...

however..., VM refuse to provide it even today, after spending all that money on upgrading and migrating everyone to their new wizbang billing system for the future, VM refuse to provide these simple things we want to pay for, and so they cant profit from it, and we end users cant get it.

thats the choice the sales teams and executives have made, and thats why cable is in such a mess with its werst ratio in the UK market place for years now, a follower of the best *DSL UK upload packages, instead of a leader on many levels, were it could have been far in advance of *DSL in the upload rates.....and greater customer base and profits, their choice to throw away that massive advantage, not ours.

your not keeping up with the latest trends, there are several commercial packages today that are using 1to1 U/D ratio in the Wimax and other microwave sectors (Wireless 1GigE to name but one) for far less than your assumed 1990's £600-£1000 a month priced packages.

[Druchii]

Originally Posted by popper

it's just their name for the official "pay your fee and we will test it for complience to the spec and grade it".

with Docsis3 , they have set several official "testing days" or "waves" a year so as to progress the hardware in stages as quick as they can...

Ah, thanks for the info.

[Horace]

Originally Posted by popper

well, we are talking cable here and upload rates in this instance but even then your best Be* upload will provide even you with a far better real upload rate irespective of your lower download rate as stated.

I'm referring to the limits quoted on Be*'s website for availability of upload plus. If that's not available then Be*'s standard upload is no better than VM's 50Mb. Having said that I didn't take the possible price differences of 50Mb into account. So Be* may still end up being the better deal.

Originally Posted by popper

your not keeping up with the latest trends, there are several commercial packages today that are using 1to1 U/D ratio in the Wimax and other microwave sectors (Wireless 1GigE to name but one) for far less than your assumed 1990's £600-£1000 a month priced packages.

I was referring to packages available as alternatives to the majority of VM customers to increase upload bandwidth in the very near, 50Mb rolllout-near, future.
As for the price to increase upload significantly, SDSL is around £200 a month unmanaged from most ISP's for a 2Mb/2Mb package. I'm not totally sure how much NTL charge for a leased line but I've seen quotes around the amounts I've stated. Mostly forum posts and nothing better than the 'bloke in the pub' sources which I should of stated in the original post.

[broadbandbug]

Originally Posted by TraxData

They wont pay for the upgrades to provide higher uploads.

50mbit is just a product they are putting out to say "ner ner look at us, we're faster than you BT"

If they was serious about providing fast speeds you'd be seeing at least 5mbit upload.

Whilst the DoCSIS 3.0 Modems only have the ability to be registered on a single upstream and that upstream can only be 3.2Mhz QAM16 (10Mb/s) then it is very unlikely that 5Mb/s Upstream would be viable (2 simultaneous users bust the upstream). Higher Upstream may come when upstream channel bonding is available (2009/2010).
The other option is to spend shed loads of money to bring the return path up to a higher quality to support QAM32 or QAM64.

---------- Post added at 07:18 ---------- Previous post was at 06:59 ----------

I am interested how some of you feel it possible for VM to offer greater upload speeds on a network that only has 30Mhz return path spectrum in which to work?
To me that breaks down as only having between around 18Mhz and 30Mhz to use, so 4 upstream channels.. 3 x 3.2MHz QAM16 and 1 x 1.6Mhz QPSK shared across around 400 customers