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Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
View Poll Results: Will you be opting out of the Virgin Ad Deal?
Yes, Definitely. 958 95.51%
No, I am quite happy to share my surfing habits with anyone. 45 4.49%
Voters: 1003. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 03-07-2008, 15:44   #11026
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

I like the bit at the end of that report...

The TrustE numbers cited by eMarketer said that only 12.6 percent of respondents said that more than a quarter of the targeted ads they were delivered were relevant.


I just spent a month chosing a guitar - I researched various models online and I checked lots of stores for availability, price and their customer service policies. I travelled a lot of miles to various stores until I found THE guitar. It was time consuming but it was also a part of the fun and along the way I joined a couple of forums and now have some new friends in America, Canada, Sweden and the UK who I am in touch with regularly.

In Phorm's version of the future I would have been told which guitar to buy, which shop to buy it from and how much to pay. I would not have uncovered any of the wonderful shops and websites that I found by chance or by following random links and I would have had a lot less fun then I did by "window shopping" the net.

To then find out that Phorm had been pushing me towards buying (cos that's what it's all about) the most unsuitable guitar from the dearest shop with a six month back-order and no returns policy would be rather annoying.

I like serendipity and I don't want to see the internet turned into just another High St with the same old shops and the same old coffee houses and absolutely no character. I certainly don't want to sit around waiting to be told what to think.
 
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Old 03-07-2008, 15:46   #11027
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Just to clarify regarding questions for the Earl of Northesk.

I see this meeting very much as me representing all you guys (and everyone else elsewhere who has concerns) so whereas I have my own questions I don't want them to dominate the meeting, I would rather everyone gets an opportunity to have their concerns addressed and I will add my most important questions to whatever time is left.

I would prefer it if people could give me their first and last name with their questions as I am going to ask Earl of Northesk for permission to record the meeting with a dictaphone which I would then like to publish on the web. if people give me their names I will make sure the questions are asked with the appropriate name of the person who submitted it.

Please also try and keep questions in line with what he may be able to answer. For example, there is no point in me asking him questions about the Home Office or ICO as he will not be able to answer them (at least not without consulting both authorities first and as we already know the HO don't even answer his questions in a reasonable time frame). More useful questions would be ones seaking his opinion on issues. For example, I received a very good question from Peter N as follows:

Quote:
Why should the internet be treated differently from any other communication system?

Interfering with mail or tapping phone lines is illegal (with very limited exceptions) so why should the internet be regarded as an exception especially as it is rapidly becoming the primary communications media for personal and business use and is going to be increasingy important as a means of contact between the public and the various authorities including parliament, the police and the health services as well as communications between officials in those bodies?

Surely it needs at least the same level of protection as the other systems as an absolute minimum and the role and duties of the ISP should be set out in law as it is for the mail and telephone service providers?
This is the sort of question the Earl will be able to answer because it is asking for an opinion.

Please remember I only have a couple of hours at most with the Earl so I have to select the strongest questions, please don't be offended if you submit a question and it doesn't get asked.

Thanks

Alexander Hanff
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Old 03-07-2008, 15:48   #11028
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

I think one of the key questions will of course be 'what do you think of BT's opinion that copyright laws don't apply to them' or something along those lines... but I'd be very surprised if you didn't already have that one on the list :P
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Old 03-07-2008, 16:06   #11029
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Try asking him ;
"Do you think that if BT etc were to offer better broadband speeds or cheaper monthly fees then that would be a reasonable way for informed customers to opt-in to have Phorm ?"

Bet you won't !
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Old 03-07-2008, 16:11   #11030
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Your question makes no sense so no I won't be asking him it. If customers want to Opt-In to Phorm that is entirely up to them for whatever reasons they wish, and I expect I am not the only person here who believes the same.

The issue is Phorm is NOT opt-in it is opt-out, which is illegal.

Alexander Hanff

Sorry the above was addressing HW not icsys.

Can people please send the questions in PM, not post them to the thread. Thanks.
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Old 03-07-2008, 16:12   #11031
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by HamsterWheel View Post
Try asking him ;
"Do you think that if BT etc were to offer better broadband speeds or cheaper monthly fees then that would be a reasonable way for informed customers to opt-in to have Phorm ?"

Bet you won't !
If the Phorm system was truly opt-in where no data is passed anywhere near a Phorm server if not opted-in then there is no reason that the above could not be implemented.

But we know that even if you do not opt-in, your data still passes through Phorm kit.
I for one would rather pay than be profiled.
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Old 03-07-2008, 16:14   #11032
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

software developers have spent years to keep us spam, phish and ad free, why should a ad company come along and undo all that and sit in the isp where we cannot avoid the very things we we never see, and on top of that snoop on our carefree surfing to profile us and sell our data to the highest bidder, never mind us how about our children, their data is not for anyone to intercept and profile and sell and serve up unwanted ad`s.
why should we pay for a service and get no reduction for been bombarded with ad`s, even opt`ed out can we be sure we not going through the dpi kit, NO. It`s ABUSE of our rights to spied on for no reason other than for commercial gain at our cost.
could go on but i am sure others want to chip in pipe up.
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Old 03-07-2008, 16:15   #11033
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by icsys View Post
I for one would rather pay than be profiled.
I second that. Especially when the price difference will be less than the cost of a loaf of bread a month.
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Old 03-07-2008, 16:16   #11034
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tharrick View Post
I think one of the key questions will of course be 'what do you think of BT's opinion that copyright laws don't apply to them' or something along those lines... but I'd be very surprised if you didn't already have that one on the list :P
Indeed. That's the line I was going to go down. I have a direct line to someone from BERR (who rang at an inopportune moment) and I plan to put the copyright question to them.

To that end does anyone have any links to BT or Phorm material where it states that a copy of the web page is made / kept?

Also is there any mileage in the fact that HTTP is a request / response protocol. My readers request the page and I send it to them. It is not generally available as I decide to which requests I wish to respond. I may do that based on a cookie I have placed there as a result of them logging in. etc.
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Old 03-07-2008, 16:17   #11035
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by HamsterWheel View Post
Try asking him ;
"Do you think that if BT etc were to offer better broadband speeds or cheaper monthly fees then that would be a reasonable way for informed customers to opt-in to have Phorm ?"

Bet you won't !
I don't expect he would make himself look like a fool in front of his lordship by posing such a badly-phrased question as that, no.
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Old 03-07-2008, 16:20   #11036
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by icsys View Post
If the Phorm system was truly opt-in where no data is passed anywhere near a Phorm server if not opted-in then there is no reason that the above could not be implemented.
... and that opt in means provider of SERVER and CLIENT opt in.

Speaking as the operator of several servers, I'd like the chance to decline to opt in too, so I can assume the privacy of my communication is also respected.

Pete

---------- Post added at 15:20 ---------- Previous post was at 15:18 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by SimonHickling View Post
To that end does anyone have any links to BT or Phorm material where it states that a copy of the web page is made / kept?
Here, in a Webwise webchat. Marc Burgess is Phorm's CTO (Chief Technology Officer).

narcosis
What sort of impact will the scanning & tagging of http traffic have on response times during peak surfing times ?

MBurgess
Pages are not tagged (or modified), and the keyword analysis process is offline so it can't affect response times. The ISPs are very concerned not to interfere with users' browsing experience.

narcosis
If the keyword analysis process is offline then in order to scan for keywords would you not have to have a copy of webpage in order to analyze it offline ?

MBurgess
Yes, a mirrored copy is analyzed.


Also confirmed by Richard Clayton's analysis

Quote:
1. The basic concept behind the Phorm architecture is that they wish to take a copy of the traffc that passes between an end-user and a website.
2. The actual mechanics of taking the copy differs from ISP to ISP, but one can view it
as a Layer 7 switch
34... Recall from paragraph 2 that the Layer 7 switch mirrors a copy of all of the
browsing activity to an out-of-band machine, it is this machine that inspects the traffc.
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Old 03-07-2008, 16:21   #11037
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by HamsterWheel
Try asking him ;
Try answering a question first, for three days now i have asked you to answer these question:

1. How does phorm enhance my privacy?
2. How does phorm dispose of my data and what method is used?

Admin edit (Chris T): We will not tolerate foul language. Do not attempt to bypass our swear filter by mis-spelling words.

Is your ISP BT,VM or TalkTalk?
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Old 03-07-2008, 16:23   #11038
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dephormation View Post
Here.
snip
MBurgess
Yes, a mirrored copy is analyzed.
Thank you very much.
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Old 03-07-2008, 16:24   #11039
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Looking at HW's earlier link (http://www.netimperative.com/news/20...t-all-bad-news)

Quote:
Behavioural targeting has long been predicted to be the way of the future in the world of online advertising, it allows advertisers to deliver ads targeted to a user’s profile and offers them a more relevant online experience,
There seems to a practical point being missed by "the world of online advertising" in their support for behavioural targeting. Had Phorm signed up 70% of UK broadband customers - where would this leave the rest of the UK online advertising industry?

There can only be one installation at the ISP(s) and if that is Phorm then unless you work for Phorm you will see nothing of the bright new future. Chances are, if Kent is right about the reduction in irrelevant (non-Phorm) advertising, you are more likely to be unemployed shortly.

Given Phorms unique position, the door is open for gathering a good deal of useful commercial (non-subscriber, competitor?) information while the wire-tap is up. How much more impressive will Phorm's presentation be when poaching XYZ's cleints if it is based on actual habits of 10 million subscribers. I know that if I had access to that information I would use it.

I think that if I were involved in online advertising right now I would be getting quite worried about my future.
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Old 03-07-2008, 16:25   #11040
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

i think ,questions about large business (not just BT, Vm, CPW) applying one rule for the paying end users as regards suspected copyright (non commercial and non profit infringment),and kicking the user, and the same copyright rules being clearly ignored by them, to make a commercial profit, based on wholesale piracy, is a good one.

when put into perspective, and worded in such as way to help the Earl? of Northesk (shouldnt that be Lord Northesk, not Earl of Northesk alexander?) make a point of it, given the MANY new interested readers/listeners that will be informed by the interview from a UK lord...

dont ever forget, the lord , the Earl, and the Baroness speaking and hence being quoted afterwards, will give the campaign much credence in the higher circles of influence in this country, so we dont want to many mundane questions...

(you know the drill, it needs druming home though and in an official quote if possible)
is the lord conserned that any paying end users , even the countrys judges, lawyers, news editors, reporters ,home workers and their children that happen to have BT (with this DPI kit installed on the other end of the wire)connecting their BB web connection at work, or at home, will potentialy have this unlawful wiretap intercepting each and every webpage and Email they use (even if they dont see the ads if they are opted-out of that ad delivery part)etc.

isnt that more than enough reason to stop it NOW, for example the very real potential to have some ISP/Phorm employee or 3rd party be payed by unknown persons to divert any and all confidential http pages to a secret storage for other unlawful purposes aginst these high ranking and respected people being (in many cases unknowingly/unwitingly) intercepted.

or something like that hard hitting ,and by all accounts, factually currect and easy to do if you have access to the right people and pay them enough....

see 3rd party cookies, MITM, and all the other points the web techs etc have already proven can to used with this core webwise/phorm/ISP collective business model.
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