Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

[none]

Originally Posted by Julian Smart

Spot on, TechTeam. Sometimes you can't let users dictate how new technologies and ideas are applied - it's going to affect the bottom line. My own company, SchaftU, is just coming out of stealth mode and may I humbly say that we've modelled ourselves on forward-looking tech companies like yourselves. I hope I'm not giving too much away (to the Police) when I say that we're looking at a number of major high street banks and offering their customers an exciting new opportunity to reassign their assets using our patent-pending BankJob technology. Now, it's possible that when we have implemented this across the specific vaults targetted for trials going forward, that some of the more vocal customers will complain - there are always a few - but we think when we've got the publicity right, paid for some studies, and tweaked our processes, then we'll get the buy-in we need. The point is, don't let unproductive discussion, outdated ethics and premature dialogue with the end user get in the way of inevitable technological progress. If I may, I'd like to elevate the philosophy you yourselves have expressed to a slogan that all forward-looking technology companies should take to heart -

"Just try it out and get it wrong."

Three cheers for this great leap forward in privacy! I can't wait for my family to share the joke when they're served ads related to my porn surfing! Classic. You guys are a ray of light in our otherwise poorly-profiled and inadequately-targeted lives.

MD, SchaftU Enterprises

quite possibly the best reply in the thread

[Anonymouse]

I repeat my earlier question to the mods: have you told anyone at Virgin about the general feeling on this board (if they don't know already)? What was/is their response?

I will keep repeating that question until I/we get an answer, because we need to know what they think. Before I/we do anything drastic such as changing ISP, I/we need information on which to base an informed decision - and I do not mean the spin we're currently getting. One way or another, I for one want the TRUTH about what the hell's going on! Are we supposed to believe that Virgin Media's so hard-up they need a company like Phorm to inject some cash into 'em? Come on!

Hang on, I've just thought of an apposite quote (from Richard Morgan's Altered Carbon):

In any agenda, political or otherwise, there is a cost to be borne. Always ask what it is, and who will be paying. If you don't, the agenda-makers will pick up the perfume of your silence like swamp panthers on the scent of blood, and the next thing you know, the person expected to bear the cost will be you. And you may not have what it takes to pay.

So: what, really, is the agenda here? Who's paying (us, most likely)? In what coin?

And can we afford it?

Myself, I don't think so. Nor do I see why we should have to. This is not what we signed up for.

[fizgog]

Not read all the posts, so sorry if it's been brought up before but could you do the following: -

Use the internet through a secure vpn tunnel to say an office server.

[lucevans]

Originally Posted by isf

So why have they developed a ridiculous cookie based opt-out system that sends this info to their anonymizer instead of having the opt-out at the ISP/network level? This is pretty much the question I've been asking.

Wait for it...their answer to this question is pure genius...."The opt-out cannot be done at ISP level, because that would require us to know your IP address, and by the very nature of the Phorm system, we cannot know that." So now you know! Here's a thought: instead, why not just get Virgin Media to pull out the wires that they plan to connect between my cable modem and Phorm's hardware? That'd work.

[isf]

Originally Posted by fizgog

Not read all the posts, so sorry if it's been brought up before but could you do the following: -

Use the internet through a secure vpn tunnel to say an office server.

Yes, or proxy/ssh forward through a hosted VM etc... For most people it'll be cheaper to switch ISP.

[Florence]

Originally Posted by Anonymouse

I repeat my earlier question to the mods: have you told anyone at Virgin about the general feeling on this board (if they don't know already)? What was/is their response?

I will keep repeating that question until I/we get an answer, because we need to know what they think. Before I/we do anything drastic such as changing ISP, I/we need information on which to base an informed decision - and I do not mean the spin we're currently getting. One way or another, I for one want the TRUTH about what the hell's going on! Are we supposed to believe that Virgin Media's so hard-up they need a company like Phorm to inject some cash into 'em? Come on!

Hang on, I've just thought of an apposite quote (from Richard Morgan's Altered Carbon):

In any agenda, political or otherwise, there is a cost to be borne. Always ask what it is, and who will be paying. If you don't, the agenda-makers will pick up the perfume of your silence like swamp panthers on the scent of blood, and the next thing you know, the person expected to bear the cost will be you. And you may not have what it takes to pay.

So: what, really, is the agenda here? Who's paying (us, most likely)? In what coin?

And can we afford it?

Myself, I don't think so. Nor do I see why we should have to. This is not what we signed up for.

I was going to email a link to this thread but seems Cablefoeum disable this feature, it works on our forums and sending emails to Ben has normally brought replies to or offers of help for the member.

I need to know for sure since I am totally against having advertisements targeted to me... If/when I decide to buy somethung I like to do my own checks source my own products and find where has the best offer. Not some company paying Phorm to plug their adverts on me...

[isf]

Originally Posted by lucevans

Wait for it...their answer to this question is sheer genius...."The opt-out cannot be done at ISP level, because that would require us to know your IP address, and by the very nature of the Phorm system, we cannot know that." So now you know! Here's a thought: instead, why not just get Virgin Media to pull out the wires that they plan to connect between my cable modem and Phorm's hardware? That'd work.

Exactly That's a crock of phorm right there, it wouldn't require they know anything, not even that a user had opted out. Instead customers have to opt out on every browser on every machine and even then phorm could still potentially get the request data

Out of interest, does anyone know how much revenue the phorm deal is likely to generate for VM monthly per user?

[lucevans]

Here's one of the FAQs quoted from www.webwise.com (Phorm's consumer portal);

"Q. Is my data still viewed when I opt out of the system?

A. When you opt out -- or switch the system off -- it's off. 100%. No browsing data whatsoever is passed from the ISP to Phorm. We should be clear: the Phorm servers are located in the ISP's network and browsing data is not transmitted outside the ISP. Even if you are opted out, websites will still show you ads (as they do now) but these will not be ads from the Phorm service and they will not be more relevant to your browsing."

This statement is inconsistent.

First it assures us that no browsing data whatsoever is passed from the ISP to Phorm. (I suspect that the use of the word "Phorm" here does not refer to the servers that Phorm have installed inside the ISP, but rather to the company itself)

Then it says that the Phorm servers are located inside the ISP network.

Then it tells us that Browsing data is not transmitted outside the ISP.

Well, if the Phorm servers are inside the ISP, then data doesn't have to be passed outside the ISP in order to be transmitted to the Phorm Servers, does it?
So do they mean that no browsing data is transmitted to the Phorm servers inside OR outside the ISP,
or do they mean that browsing data is transmitted to the Phorm servers inside the ISP, but not to any Phorm server outside the ISP?

I suspect the latter, and if this is the case, then as far as I'm concerned, the webpages I'm viewing are still being "analyzed" (i.e. spied upon).

---------- Post added at 00:51 ---------- Previous post was at 00:45 ----------

Originally Posted by isf

Out of interest, does anyone know how much revenue the phorm deal is likely to generate for VM monthly per user?

Well in the case of this user, £0.00
I've never clicked on an ad on a webpage in my life, and I'm sure as hell not going to start now...

[Grimpy]

Not sure if this has been posted?

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/ispphorm/

[IvIaXiIvIuS]

Originally Posted by isf

Out of interest, does anyone know how much revenue the phorm deal is likely to generate for VM monthly per user?

No but BT will net about £85 mil from it in 2 years time.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/02...p_advertising/

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Just had a thought,phorm states that no user information is kept yet they have need for a data protection department and on there own privacy report it says "you have the right to request a copy of any information that Phorm may have about you and to have any inaccuracies corrected."
Plus later in the same paragraph "We will use reasonable efforts to supply, correct or delete any information about you that Phorm may have."
I know businesses have to have some data protection policy now days regarding customer protection,but for a company that "is designed to avoid collection of any Personally Identifiable Information(PII) of the user" makes me even more suspicious of what actual data they keep on my habits

http://www.phorm.com/user_privacy/policy_services.php

[Sirius]

Originally Posted by lucevans

why not just get Virgin Media to pull out the wires that they plan to connect between my cable modem and Phorm's hardware? That'd work.

That's what i intend to do.

[none]

Originally Posted by lucevans

Here's one of the FAQs quoted from www.webwise.com (Phorm's consumer portal);

"Q. Is my data still viewed when I opt out of the system?

A. When you opt out -- or switch the system off -- it's off. 100%. No browsing data whatsoever is passed from the ISP to Phorm. We should be clear: the Phorm servers are located in the ISP's network and browsing data is not transmitted outside the ISP. Even if you are opted out, websites will still show you ads (as they do now) but these will not be ads from the Phorm service and they will not be more relevant to your browsing."

This statement is inconsistent.

First it assures us that no browsing data whatsoever is passed from the ISP to Phorm. (I suspect that the use of the word "Phorm" here does not refer to the servers that Phorm have installed inside the ISP, but rather to the company itself)

Then it says that the Phorm servers are located inside the ISP network.

Then it tells us that Browsing data is not transmitted outside the ISP.

Well, if the Phorm servers are inside the ISP, then data doesn't have to be passed outside the ISP in order to be transmitted to the Phorm Servers, does it?
So do they mean that no browsing data is transmitted to the Phorm servers inside OR outside the ISP,
or do they mean that browsing data is transmitted to the Phorm servers inside the ISP, but not to any Phorm server outside the ISP?

I suspect the latter, and if this is the case, then as far as I'm concerned, the webpages I'm viewing are still being "analyzed" (i.e. spied upon).

You ask a simple intelligent question.

Personally, I think that they know our data will reach Phorm systems/servers at some point in the chain but they do not want to admit that as people will (rightfully or wrongfully) view that as spying. So what we get are carefully worded replies to help avoid giving the answers they do not want to give. In other words, they give some of what you want to hear, just not all of it. Politicians are especially good at this.

I have noticed their responses on other sites/blogs are extremely well considered and deliberately ambiguous in places where detailed answers are required.

The way in which their system will work appears (at least to me) to be carefully guarded and as such I suspect we will never really truly know to what extent it reaches. We can and will ask questions (as is our right to) but I do not think we will get sufficient answers.

At the end of the day, how can you really trust a company that has made its previous fortunes in generating spyware.

[Sirius]

Originally Posted by none

You ask a simple intelligent question.

Personally, I think that they know our data will reach Phorm systems/servers at some point in the chain but they do not want to admit that as people will (rightfully or wrongfully) view that as spying. So what we get are carefully worded replies to help avoid giving the answers they do not want to give. In other words, they give some of what you want to hear, just not all of it. Politicians are especially good at this.

I have noticed their responses on other sites/blogs are extremely well considered and deliberately ambiguous in places where detailed answers are required.

The way in which their system will work appears (at least to me) to be carefully guarded and as such I suspect we will never really truly know to what extent it reaches. We can and will ask questions (as is our right to) but I do not think we will get sufficient answers.

At the end of the day, how can you really trust a company that has made its previous fortunes in generating spyware.

It says a lot at how fast they ran away when asked those questions yesterday. You can just imagine how much work there legal dept is putting in at the moment ensuring that the answers they give are just within the frame work they have given without giving away the true nature of there Spyware.

[dav]

One thing I would like to see from Phorm is a webpage that you can visit which tells you your status (whether you are actively being monitored, have blocked them, whether they have any record pertaining to your browser etc), exactly what is in your cookie, what ad categories your cookie is matched against and maybe the ability to delete or permanently disable certain categories.

If they are so concerned with data privacy then they can prove it by giving us access to anything they may have and give us the ability to alter it. It should be simple, all they have to do is provide a page that, instead of returning an add returns the cookie contents.

BTW, I still genuinely hope this thing never gets implemented, but the bloodymindedness and contempt for customers exhibited by VM leads me to believe that it will arrive sooner rather than later and that it will be very difficult to avoid.

[Sirius]

Here's a point. They say they reject numbers over 3 digits. That is a hell of a lot of cvs security numbers they will have from the back of credit cards.