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Old 06-05-2012, 19:02   #16
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Re: 2nd hand tivo boxes

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Originally Posted by andy_m View Post
if it was your intention at the time you acquired the goods to use them in the correct manner, and only became your intention later to do with them what you like, then you haven't committed theft and the box cannot be considered "stolen".
No, but a person acting in this manner could be wide open to a criminal prosecution under the Fraud Act 2006, under section 2 (fraud by false representation, the representation being that they are entitled to sell the TiVo box) - providing they are acting dishonestly, i.e. they knew they were not entitled to sell the box.

The same Act, in section 11, can also be used to prosecute people who buy cable boxes and modems with the intention of getting services without paying for them. The OP seems aware that there's a TiVo charge and, on a certain reading of his posts, also seems to be willing to attempt to circumvent that charge by purchasing a box off eBay (or wherever). Under these circumstances he could be at risk of committing an offence under the Fraud Act. I would say whoever sold the box to him almost certainly has done so.
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Old 06-05-2012, 19:13   #17
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Re: 2nd hand tivo boxes

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Originally Posted by TbGbe View Post
But at the end of the contract, Virgin would have communicated that the box should be returned (or be disposed of in an "environmentally friendly way") either over the phone or by note/letter.

If the ex-customer then decides to put it on e-bay (after Virgin didn't collect it) isn't that at least fraudulent selling?
So long as your eBay listing doesn't suggest this is usable on Virgin's network how would this be fraud?
Selling it on is an "environmentally friendly way" to disposal of it as you put it.
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Old 06-05-2012, 19:19   #18
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Re: 2nd hand tivo boxes

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Originally Posted by Fawkes View Post
So long as your eBay listing doesn't suggest this is usable on Virgin's network how would this be fraud?
Selling it on is an "environmentally friendly way" to disposal of it as you put it.
Because the seller is not entitled to sell it. Virgin's instructions are that it should be returned, or, apparently, environmental disposal. They are entitled to issue those instructions because it's their property. Knowingly doing something else with it is dishonest and therefore potentially fraudulent.
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Old 06-05-2012, 19:35   #19
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Re: 2nd hand tivo boxes

Of course where it gets confusing is that the original S1 TiVo users are certainly entitled to sell their boxes, but they won't work on the VM network
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Old 06-05-2012, 19:49   #20
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Re: 2nd hand tivo boxes

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Originally Posted by Chris View Post
No, but a person acting in this manner could be wide open to a criminal prosecution under the Fraud Act 2006, under section 2 (fraud by false representation, the representation being that they are entitled to sell the TiVo box) - providing they are acting dishonestly, i.e. they knew they were not entitled to sell the box.

The same Act, in section 11, can also be used to prosecute people who buy cable boxes and modems with the intention of getting services without paying for them. The OP seems aware that there's a TiVo charge and, on a certain reading of his posts, also seems to be willing to attempt to circumvent that charge by purchasing a box off eBay (or wherever). Under these circumstances he could be at risk of committing an offence under the Fraud Act. I would say whoever sold the box to him almost certainly has done so.
As I said in post 15, you can make a case for fraud. You won't prove it because as you rightly say the knowledge and intent of the offender are key, and I still prefer to believe that most people are acting honestly and are unaware that they don't own their box-I don't think people commit fraud for the sake of £20 unless it's scalable, and generally people only have one or two boxes to sell. That might be a naive view.
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Old 06-05-2012, 20:13   #21
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Re: 2nd hand tivo boxes

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Originally Posted by v0id View Post
Of course where it gets confusing is that the original S1 TiVo users are certainly entitled to sell their boxes, but they won't work on the VM network
As of June last year, that is correct as that is when the service stopped. However, prior to that I had a S1 Tivo working perfectly well with NTL/VM since 2006 and with Telewest before that. Also, although I have no personal experience of it, I believe that the new public-domain AltEPG works perfectly well with any VM box.
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Old 06-05-2012, 20:16   #22
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Re: 2nd hand tivo boxes

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Originally Posted by carlwaring View Post
As of June last year, that is correct as that is when the service stopped. However, prior to that I had a S1 Tivo working perfectly well with NTL/VM since 2006 and with Telewest before that. Also, although I have no personal experience of it, I believe that the new public-domain AltEPG works perfectly well with any VM box.
I thought S1 stbs still work through a community based service.
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Old 06-05-2012, 22:40   #23
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Re: 2nd hand tivo boxes

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Originally Posted by andy_m View Post
I was more arguing Peter's suggestion that the OP has "received stolen goods", because he hasn't, rather than your suggestion that a 2nd hand TiVo "could" be stolen, which is actually correct, although only in a certain set of circumstances. Actually stealing a TiVo, ie. from a van, would be one, or signing a contract with Virgin with the sole intention at the outset of appropriating a TiVo just to sell it on for profit would be another. I actually can't think of any others.
It is Virgin Media property and therefore is not available for sale to the general public, so if you purchase a device or are given one then you are receiving stolen property, how clear do you need it to be.

If someone steals a car and you buy it then you are receiving stolen property, you may not be prosecuted but the car would be seized and you would be out of pocket, the same can be said about the Virgin Media device.

But to be perfectly honest all that would happen is that when you rang up the agent would just say sorry that device does not belong on your account, if you want one I can put you through to sales, leaving the OP with a TIVO sized hole in his wallet if he paid any money for the device and rightly so in my opinion.

As the old saying goes A fool and his money are soon parted

Last edited by Peter_; 06-05-2012 at 22:44.
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Old 06-05-2012, 23:08   #24
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Re: 2nd hand tivo boxes

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Originally Posted by LexDiamond View Post
I thought S1 stbs still work through a community based service.
Yes. That would be the AltEPG I mentioned in my post
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Old 07-05-2012, 10:16   #25
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Re: 2nd hand tivo boxes

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Yes. That would be the AltEPG I mentioned in my post
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Old 07-05-2012, 12:15   #26
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Re: 2nd hand tivo boxes

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Originally Posted by Peter_ View Post
It is Virgin Media property and therefore is not available for sale to the general public, so if you purchase a device or are given one then you are receiving stolen property, how clear do you need it to be.
You seem (perhaps wilfully) to be missing the point. In Post 2 you used the phrase "receiving stolen goods". That is a specific criminal offence, and one which someone buying an ex-subscriber's box off eBay is not committing, for the reasons Andy explained to you.

The purchaser is not "receiving" in the legal sense and the goods are not "stolen" in the legal sense. Providing the seller knew he was acting dishonestly what he has done is commit a fraud. Providing the OP's intention was to use the box to dishonestly avoid VM charges (such as the Tivo charge he mentioned in post 1) then he also is open to an accusation of fraud.

In both cases such charges would be brought under the Fraud Act, which was deliberately written to make such fraudulent acts the equivalent of theft in circumstances where what has happened falls outside the legal definition of theft.
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Old 07-05-2012, 17:43   #27
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Re: 2nd hand tivo boxes

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Originally Posted by Chris View Post
You seem (perhaps wilfully) to be missing the point. In Post 2 you used the phrase "receiving stolen goods". That is a specific criminal offence, and one which someone buying an ex-subscriber's box off eBay is not committing, for the reasons Andy explained to you.

The purchaser is not "receiving" in the legal sense and the goods are not "stolen" in the legal sense. Providing the seller knew he was acting dishonestly what he has done is commit a fraud. Providing the OP's intention was to use the box to dishonestly avoid VM charges (such as the Tivo charge he mentioned in post 1) then he also is open to an accusation of fraud.

In both cases such charges would be brought under the Fraud Act, which was deliberately written to make such fraudulent acts the equivalent of theft in circumstances where what has happened falls outside the legal definition of theft.
I take that you also missed the post below, by the way Virgin Media class them as stolen so take up your wilful argument with them as that is their decision not mine, would you like the address to contact them.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_ View Post
It is Virgin Media property and therefore is not available for sale to the general public, so if you purchase a device or are given one then you are receiving stolen property, how clear do you need it to be.

If someone steals a car and you buy it then you are receiving stolen property, you may not be prosecuted but the car would be seized and you would be out of pocket, the same can be said about the Virgin Media device.

But to be perfectly honest all that would happen is that when you rang up the agent would just say sorry that device does not belong on your account, if you want one I can put you through to sales, leaving the OP with a TIVO sized hole in his wallet if he paid any money for the device and rightly so in my opinion.

As the old saying goes A fool and his money are soon parted

Last edited by Peter_; 07-05-2012 at 17:47.
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Old 07-05-2012, 17:51   #28
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Re: 2nd hand tivo boxes

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Originally Posted by Peter_ View Post
I take that you also missed the post below, by the way Virgin Media class them as stolen so take up your wilful argument with them as that is their decision not mine, would you like the address to contact them.


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Funny, you seem to have missed the fact that I quoted 'the post below' in my reply. To be honest, there wasn't much notable in it, being as it was your usual habit of simply re-stating the same argument over and over again, rather than actually engaging with what the other poster has said to you.

Well done for missing the point of a discussion forum after being a member of this one for so many years though. I'm taking the point up with you because I'm discussing it here, as you are. Though once again I'm sure you're wilfully missing the point because it's easier than actually trying to develop your argument. Isn't this the part where you usually resort to posting cartoons?
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Old 07-05-2012, 18:06   #29
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Re: 2nd hand tivo boxes

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Originally Posted by Chris View Post
Funny, you seem to have missed the fact that I quoted 'the post below' in my reply. To be honest, there wasn't much notable in it, being as it was your usual habit of simply re-stating the same argument over and over again, rather than actually engaging with what the other poster has said to you.

Well done for missing the point of a discussion forum after being a member of this one for so many years though. I'm taking the point up with you because I'm discussing it here, as you are. Though once again I'm sure you're wilfully missing the point because it's easier than actually trying to develop your argument. Isn't this the part where you usually resort to posting cartoons?
As I stated Virgin Media class all such equipment as stolen so again I am just passing on what they have decided.

But as in the post above if someone has paid money for such equipment then all that will happen when they ring up to try and get it activated is for the agent to inform them no can do as it is not listed on your account.

At which point that person realises that they have lost their money for buying such illegal goods.

The loss of money will probably prevent similar instances happening as they will no doubt inform their friends what happens if they buy equipment not provided as part of their package.

Also most people will never see their money again as the seller has usually disappeared.

Is this not the point where you mention the area I live in and how much we hate other people or themes upon those lines.

What I now find strange is after the numerous times I have posted this since January 2009, that suddenly I am questioned over what Virgin Media thinks about illegally obtained boxes regardless of the history, maybe the is something else going on in the background, do remember that I have posted only what Virgin Media have stated regarding their own property.

Last edited by Peter_; 07-05-2012 at 19:42.
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Old 03-12-2012, 13:43   #30
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Re: 2nd hand tivo boxes

My friend paid £99.00 for his, because he was already a subscriber
so to me he has paid for that box and now owns it
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