Sky One Not Back in Milton Keynes

[fester61]

Chris, I haven't spent a penny on this yet but over 7yrs they've had £336 and provided only half the service paid for. If I can get back some of this it'll go nicely towards that freesat+HD box which I have to say looks a nice bit of kit.

---------- Post added at 13:54 ---------- Previous post was at 13:52 ----------

MK actually looks quite good on Google Earth, but there are parts that only look good from that altitude.

[Chris]

Originally Posted by akki007

But I mean, what is that problem with VM not rolling digital out to MK? Is it because MK looks naff on google earth?

The utopian hippies who designed Milton Keynes envisaged clean architectural lines uncluttered by TV aerials. So pretty much the whole place was cabled up from the start. The problem is, they didn't cable it up with fibre (not sure that existed at the time, not outside of labs anyway) or even coax, they cabled it with low-quality aluminium wires not dissimilar to what is used to this day in ordinary domestic telephone installations (except that most domestic installations use copper, which costs more but is better for the job).

This aluminium cable has very limited capacity for carrying TV broadcasts of any kind. It was fine back in the day when there were only 3 or 4 channels, but these days it struggles. And as if that weren't bad enough, aluminium is hopeless at carrying ADSL broadband internet too.

But the problems don't end there. The cabling is actually owned by BT, which used to run the show as the UK's state-owned monopoly telecoms provider. But BT has no interest in running a cable TV service, so it leased the cables to Virgin Media (one of VM's predecessor companies in fact, but let's try to keep this simple).

You now have a problem common to many large corporate buildings and pieces of infrastructure - an extreme reluctance on the part of both the owner, and the lessee, to spend any money on upgrades, as neither of them think it is worth their while to do it. VM won't install equipment to feed digital TV because the network can't really cope with it, and BT won't upgrade the network because 1. they won't make much of a return on it and 2. they would be giving a great big leg-up to one of their biggest competitors.

Stalemate.

[m419]

The main problem with Milton Keynes and Westminster digital upgrading is that these two franchises are very different to the ones built by the American cable groups, the BT cable franchises consist of a cable leading from each property in those areas leading to the source meaning that each individual property would need to be upgraded all at the same time which would take months and would mean switching the whole system off for a period of time whilst this happens, however people will have no TV therefore this is what is causing a delay,furthermore BT wont upgrade it at there cost, even though they own the network and Virgin Media are renting it!

Originally, users just had to insert a cable directly into the cable tv socket with no set top box needed and you would recieve all the normal 4 channels plus a local channel. However as the service became commercialised, set top boxes came into use and many more channels where available.

I think the best thing to do is to offer Broadband only over these cables and offer IPTV and Voip services through Broadband, that would be Virgin Media's cheapest option and convenient option for customers.

The channels you should recieve for £4 per month should be:

BBC 1
BBC 2
ITV 1
Channel 4
Channel 5
Hallmark
Sky 1
Sky News
Eurosport
Discovery Channel
MTV
Virgin 1
Disney Channel ???
Nickelodeon ???
Living ???
Challenge TV ???
Film 4 ???
Television X (Premium channel) (An extra fee is required)
Sky Sports 1 and 3 (Premium channels) (An extra fee is required)

It is no longer possible to broadcast Sky Movie channels except Sky Movies Family due to the content shown, a pin is required to watch most of the Sky Movie channels during the day and analogue equipment does not support this. Therefore the have been withdrawn.

Front Row/Filmflex is also no longer compatible with analogue.

I do see a reason to use Analogue in these areas instead of freeview as some of the channels above cannot be recieved through freeview or even freesat such as Virgin 1.

The dedicated phone number for Virgin Media serving these two areas is 0800-952-0345

From what I have heard the analogue tv service in these areas will disappear very soon, so I doubt they will be taking on new users, however broadband can still be offered.

Analogue only areas are not dealt with on the Virgin Media website, therefore you need to call the freephone number listed above.

[fester61]

OK just had a visitation from a Virgin engineer as a result of their customer services not knowing their A*** from their elbow. So for those interested MK subscribers:

Basic channels bbc1, bbc2, ITVx2, Ch4, ch5, BBC news24, E4, Hallmark and QVC are available by simply plugging your tv into the 'aerial' socket that terminates the cable.

All the additional channels as mentioned above + others are only available using a set top box on the VM starter+ package. AS1STR3 is the VM product code.

Ask for an upgrade to this service which costs £4pm, no not on top of the £4pm you already pay just £4pm for the whole lot. DO NOT ask for 'installation' they'll likely charge you an installation fee. This service is not advertised and not mentioned anywhere on VM's web site.

On the subject of digital, VM have been offered an upgrade of the MK network with a fibre ring and copper to the subscriber for £3m. I'm told they are likely to take up this offer and as a result will offer their full digital packages including 50Mb broadband in due course. (Not holding my breath here).

Sat dish on the wall 4way LNB to feed SKY+ into the lounge and freesat to one or two others. Freeview capable aerial on the side of the house linking into distribution box for the rest of the house. Looking at a nice Philex SLx8L distribution system to tidy the lot up.

Paul

[BenMcr]

Originally Posted by fester61

OK just had a visitation from a Virgin engineer as a result of their customer services not knowing their A*** from their elbow. So for those interested MK subscribers:

Basic channels bbc1, bbc2, ITVx2, Ch4, ch5, BBC news24, E4, Hallmark and QVC are available by simply plugging your tv into the 'aerial' socket that terminates the cable.

All the additional channels as mentioned above + others are only available using a set top box on the VM starter+ package. AS1STR3 is the VM product code.

Hopefully this will help

Milton Keynes Aerial only (£4)
BBC One
BBC Two
ITV1
Channel 4
Five

Starter Plus Pack – requires a STB (also £4)

All the channels in Standard Cable Pack, plus
BBC News 24
British Eurosport
Cartoon Network
CNBC
CNN
Discovery Channel
Discovery Home & Leisure
Hallmark
Movies 24
MTV
QVC
Sky News
TV Travel Shop
UKTV History
Virgin1


Add-on packs

1 add-on pack: £5.00
2 add-on packs: £8.00
3 add-on packs: £11.00
4 add-on packs: £13.00

Classic Pack
Challenge TV
G.O.L.D

Music and Youth Pack
Nickelodeon
Trouble
VH1

Contemporary Pack
Bravo
Living TV
Men and Motors
Paramount Comedy
Sci Fi Channel
Sky One
TCM

News and Documentary Pack
The History Channel
National Geographic

Sky Premiums

Add Sky Sports 1, 2 and 3 for £19

Add-on channels

Adult Collection (TVX + The Adult Chnl)
£14.00

Film Four
£6.00

God Channel
Free on request

JSTV
£6.00

Television X
£10.00

The Adult Channel
£10.00

Zee TV
£6.00

[m419]

Originally Posted by fester61

OK just had a visitation from a Virgin engineer as a result of their customer services not knowing their A*** from their elbow. So for those interested MK subscribers:

Basic channels bbc1, bbc2, ITVx2, Ch4, ch5, BBC news24, E4, Hallmark and QVC are available by simply plugging your tv into the 'aerial' socket that terminates the cable.

All the additional channels as mentioned above + others are only available using a set top box on the VM starter+ package. AS1STR3 is the VM product code.

Ask for an upgrade to this service which costs £4pm, no not on top of the £4pm you already pay just £4pm for the whole lot. DO NOT ask for 'installation' they'll likely charge you an installation fee. This service is not advertised and not mentioned anywhere on VM's web site.

On the subject of digital, VM have been offered an upgrade of the MK network with a fibre ring and copper to the subscriber for £3m. I'm told they are likely to take up this offer and as a result will offer their full digital packages including 50Mb broadband in due course. (Not holding my breath here).

Sat dish on the wall 4way LNB to feed SKY+ into the lounge and freesat to one or two others. Freeview capable aerial on the side of the house linking into distribution box for the rest of the house. Looking at a nice Philex SLx8L distribution system to tidy the lot up.

Paul

Well thats not bad at all for Virgin Media! £3 Million is nothing to them really, to cable an area from scratch covering between 50,000 to 100,000 properties would cost between £40 to £60 Million.

And what about the Westminster area???

I reckon it will go ahead! because their contract isnt up with BT yet is it? Therefore they need something to sell down those cables otherwise they are gonna be paying a lease costing millions and not making any money out of it in the long run, so £3 Million for an upgrade would be nothing in comparison to what they would be loosing if they didnt sell Digital TV in that area. They would only be able to sell Cable Broadband which wouldn't be popular as everyone round there has BT lines which means easy access to those 'Cheap attractive ADSL providers'.

However from what i've seen Broadband especially BT's is very slow in these two areas! offering barely 1mb in Westminster tower blocks round Edgware Road and paddington Green.

---------- Post added at 20:59 ---------- Previous post was at 20:49 ----------

Originally Posted by BenMcr

Hopefully this will help

Milton Keynes Aerial only (£4)
BBC One
BBC Two
ITV1
Channel 4
Five

Starter Plus Pack – requires a STB (also £4)

All the channels in Standard Cable Pack, plus
BBC News 24
British Eurosport
Cartoon Network
CNBC
CNN
Discovery Channel
Discovery Home & Leisure
Hallmark
Movies 24
MTV
QVC
Sky News
TV Travel Shop
UKTV History
Virgin1


Add-on packs

1 add-on pack: £5.00
2 add-on packs: £8.00
3 add-on packs: £11.00
4 add-on packs: £13.00

Classic Pack
Challenge TV
G.O.L.D

Music and Youth Pack
Nickelodeon
Trouble
VH1

Contemporary Pack
Bravo
Living TV
Men and Motors
Paramount Comedy
Sci Fi Channel
Sky One
TCM

News and Documentary Pack
The History Channel
National Geographic

Sky Premiums

Add Sky Sports 1, 2 and 3 for £19

Add-on channels

Adult Collection (TVX + The Adult Chnl)
£14.00

Film Four
£6.00

God Channel
Free on request

JSTV
£6.00

Television X
£10.00

The Adult Channel
£10.00

Zee TV
£6.00

Film 4 is a free channel, think the above packages have changed since many broadcasters have quit broadcasting through Analogue signals.

BBC has refused to broadcast BBC 3 and 4 through Analogue services, CNN has disappeared off analogue, Euronews hasnt been on Analogue in the UK since around 2000 when it disappeared and came back on Telewest Digital and Sky in 2003.

I've also been told that Channel 5 in some areas is now just a blank screen with and without a set top box and Challenge TV has been removed from the analogue line up from most of the franchises.

The next to disappear off Analogue Cable and Analogue freeview will be BBC2, it is apparent that this channel will be removed as a goverment tactic to frighten stubborn viewers that will not make the change to digital.

Does anyone know why Sky Sports 2 is not available on Analogue cable yet Sky sports 1 and 3 are???

[Chris]

Originally Posted by m419

The next to disappear off Analogue Cable and Analogue freeview will be BBC2, it is apparent that this channel will be removed as a goverment tactic to frighten stubborn viewers that will not make the change to digital.

Let's not confuse issues and then completely misconstrue them, we don't want to cause a panic. Analogue BBC2 terrestrial broadcasts will *not* be switched off except as part of the published digital switchover timetable.

BBC2 is indeed the first channel to go in any given area but that's part of the plan for technical reasons, not to scare people. BBC2 is removed, later the same day digital mux 1 is broadcast in its place. The engineers then have four weeks to evaluate and confirm everything went according to plan, then at the end of that period, if all is well, the other analogue signals will disappear and be replaced with some or all of the available digital multiplex broadcasts.

If you have been given a date for the disappearance of analogue BBC2 from your local transmitter, then that simply means you are close to your local digital switchover date.

[BenMcr]

Originally Posted by m419

Film 4 is a free channel

I'll get that double checked, thanks for pointing it out

BBC has refused to broadcast BBC 3 and 4 through Analogue services, CNN has disappeared off analogue, Euronews hasnt been on Analogue in the UK since around 2000 when it disappeared and came back on Telewest Digital and Sky in 2003.

I've also been told that Channel 5 in some areas is now just a blank screen with and without a set top box and Challenge TV has been removed from the analogue line up from most of the franchises.

<snip>

Does anyone know why Sky Sports 2 is not available on Analogue cable yet Sky sports 1 and 3 are???

What you seem to be talking about is 'proper' analogue cable - which is the process of being wound down, not the system that serves Milton Keynes and Westminster

[neilgl]

Hi all,

(long list of extra channels)

"Ask for an upgrade to this service which costs £4pm, no not on top of the £4pm you already pay just £4pm for the whole lot. DO NOT ask for 'installation' they'll likely charge you an installation fee. This service is not advertised and not mentioned anywhere on VM's web site."

OK I'm about to try that.

I'll post what happened.

Regards,
Neil

[frogstamper]

So looking at that list of analogue channels if you want the full monty, eg the starter pack and the four additional packs you are looking at paying £21pm for a mere 35 channels, and I imagine a few of them actually share the same channel.
That's only a pound shy of the digital XL pack which has over 165 channels, it does appear those still on analogue are getting the crappy end of the stick.

[techguy]

Originally Posted by Chris

The utopian hippies who designed Milton Keynes envisaged clean architectural lines uncluttered by TV aerials. So pretty much the whole place was cabled up from the start. The problem is, they didn't cable it up with fibre (not sure that existed at the time, not outside of labs anyway) or even coax, they cabled it with low-quality aluminium wires not dissimilar to what is used to this day in ordinary domestic telephone installations (except that most domestic installations use copper, which costs more but is better for the job).

This aluminium cable has very limited capacity for carrying TV broadcasts of any kind. It was fine back in the day when there were only 3 or 4 channels, but these days it struggles. And as if that weren't bad enough, aluminium is hopeless at carrying ADSL broadband internet too.

But the problems don't end there. The cabling is actually owned by BT, which used to run the show as the UK's state-owned monopoly telecoms provider. But BT has no interest in running a cable TV service, so it leased the cables to Virgin Media (one of VM's predecessor companies in fact, but let's try to keep this simple).

Sorry - mostly all factually incorrect. Let me explain..

1) MK has always had 2 access networks piped to every home and business. (They are seperate, but may pass through each others ducts and cabs at several points along the streets).

2) MK = one of the first european HFC cable networks - not a hint of aluminium in this particular network - it used full copper coax for the last mile with unfortunately, very little fibre transporting the signals from the headend .. due to expense in those days.

3) A few estates had the first European FTTH or full fibre to the home implementation as a pure experiment in the early 80s. It was a success technically, but BT (who ran it) couldn't afford it so stuck with the HFC model as it was cheaper at the time.

4) MK also has a regular BT Telephone local loop - which DID contain aluminium.. but which is now all overlaid with copper. The two estates which had TPON were overlaid with copper in recent years. The reason why ADSL don't run on these quite well - even with the overlay.. is because the telephone loop runs all over the place with a huge line length - (longest average line lengths in the UK) before terminating at the exchange.. hence too much loss = poor broadband sync speeds - if any at all!

Originally Posted by Chris

You now have a problem common to many large corporate buildings and pieces of infrastructure - an extreme reluctance on the part of both the owner, and the lessee, to spend any money on upgrades, as neither of them think it is worth their while to do it. VM won't install equipment to feed digital TV because the network can't really cope with it, and BT won't upgrade the network because 1. they won't make much of a return on it and 2. they would be giving a great big leg-up to one of their biggest competitors.

Stalemate.

5) agree with most of that but i do believe VM are weighing up the costs on an upgrade. How much of a say BT has on this given parts of the network are mostly their property.. i don't know.

6) With regards to my first point top at the very top, with the latest estates in the expansion areas of the 'new city', brand new infrastructure is routinely being piped in as and when builds are complete... and that includes HFC cable. Virgin Media sits on MK council's joint telecoms infrastructure working group with BT... and rolls out new network to these homes and areas, routinely adding them onto the customer database when available. It was a condition of becoming a leaser.. and also a requirement placed on BT to enable new estates to be continued to be wired up. What I don't know is whether these newer areas, have better catv plant that is digital ready. I presume they would be as they'd have installed the latest catv plant available surely. But whether this plant extention has more fibre than before I also don't know. Just what say Virgin has on the ongoing shape of this network is also unclear to me. Also the headend is analogue so would need to be replaced or fed remotely from Langley... ??


Glossary: MK = The original Milton Keynes boundaries as laid out by the MKDC development Corporation.. and subsequent new East and West Expansion Flanks.

[KingDaveRa]

Surely old MK would have been prime estate to roll out FTTC first. Lots of silly long lines, and people getting dire service. Even VM could get into that I'd have thought (they've made noises about some sort of TV IP service over VDSL).

Then again, I can't pretend to know the whole ins and outs of the place!

[neilgl]

Hi all,
as techguy says "MK = one of the first european HFC cable networks"
N.B. HFC = Hybrid fibre-coaxial

OK, so why can't we have high speed internet over that HFC cable network by using a cable modem in our houses ?
Would it need VM to install some CMTS "cable modem termination systems" in their headend (CMTS are equivalent to DSLAMs) ?
And don't VM already supply cable modems in other areas?

Or am I missing something obvious

Regards,
neilgl

[Felim_Doyle]

Although MK was 'cleverly' planned and designed by a forward-thinking committee, it may have been ahead of it's time or more correctly it was the proving ground for technology that was later improved upon.

I know there are loads of examples of this but all I can think of just now is the de Havilland Comet which, as the first jet airliner, was the proving ground and test bed for the technology and, unfortunately, the way metal fatigue in aviation was discovered. Ultimately, it lost out to US aircraft manufacturers, particularly Boeing, all of whom benefited from it's pioneering development. Gotta love that Airbus A380 though!

Milton Keynes (Middleton de Keynes), you are due for an upgrade (and not just to cable ). Hope you get it soon!

[techguy]

Originally Posted by neilgl

..OK, so why can't we have high speed internet over that HFC cable network by using a cable modem in our houses ?
Would it need VM to install some CMTS "cable modem termination systems" in their headend (CMTS are equivalent to DSLAMs) ?

Regards,
neilgl

...yes it would need a CMTS to be installed in the headend... which they would do .. if BT would let them. (BT Global Services division own the building .. the fibre backbone.. and the last mile coax from the green cabinets.)

On another thread someone posted VM had costed an upgrade for the entire franchise at 3 million pounds and that it was apparently looking more likely than ever to get an upgrade. Hell .. it was claimed for so long that Slough would never see a digital signal down it's cable network .. and look where we are now?

You know, the weirdest thing about all this is that I can think of another ex BT Cable franchise (Washington in Tyne & Wear) that was upgraded during NTL years... but maybe that was an outright purchase rather than a lease ??