Are boxes allowed to be sold?

[Rob M]

Originally Posted by raefil

Its not illegal to sell or purchase a cable set top box. However it is illegal to connect them to the virgin network, or any other network.

It is illegal to sell or purchase them if they were originally Virgin, NTL, Cable & Wireless, or any other cable company's equipment.....because they still belong to them.

The cable companies retain ownership of their equipment in perpetuity, therefore they never cease to be theirs, therefore you are not legally allowed to sell them.

Boxes manufactured by third parties, for use on cable networks, that have never been owned by a cable operator, can be legally sold - AFAIK though they may not be connected to the networks of said operators without first obtaining their permission (and I would suggest that they would be reticent to allow this).

[iglu]

More links

http://www.leighreporter.co.uk/leigh...ter.3914821.jp

http://www.maxconsole.net/?mode=news&newsid=25621

http://www.maxconsole.net/?mode=news&newsid=25621

They were selling modded VM boxes.... that's illegal, VM owns them.

It's fine to sell <deleted> boxes, it only becomes illegal when you connect them

[Rob]

Can we please avoid mentioning makes of STBs that are not VM supplied. Since you can't legally use them on VM, we don't need to offer any promotion of them.

[jem]

Originally Posted by Raistlin

...snip..

The cable companies retain ownership of their equipment in perpetuity, therefore they never cease to be theirs, therefore you are not legally allowed to sell them.

...snip...

But what happens in the cases of people who cancel their service(s) and VM fail to collect the box. It might be that; especially for Pace and older Samsung STBs and modems it simply isn't worth VM's time and money to send someone round or pay for the postage.

Now as I understand the legal position, if you cancel, tell VM (in writing and recorded) that you want them to collect their property, give them a reasonable time to do so (say two months, although I believe 21 days is the usually accepted interval) and they don't do it then they have given up all claim to the box and you are entitled to dispose of it as you see fit. As long as you don't modify the box or claim that it can be used to receive cable services I really don't see how you have committed any offence.

Otherwise what are you supposed to do? Keep it in the loft indefinately? Do you need to keep it in good working order for ever? Take it to a specialised recycling centre at your own expense?

I agree that purchasing one and trying to obtain services to which you are not entitled (which is all of them including the 'freeview' channels as some people seem to think everyone is entitled to) is definately illegal but I really don't think that selling a box which VM have abandoned is legally wrong.

[Rob M]

Originally Posted by jem

[...]you are entitled to dispose of it as you see fit. As long as you don't modify the box or claim that it can be used to receive cable services I really don't see how you have committed any offence.

Otherwise what are you supposed to do? Keep it in the loft indefinately? Do you need to keep it in good working order for ever? Take it to a specialised recycling centre at your own expense?

Yup, you can dispose of it for certain. What you can't do though is sell it can you? What other reason could someone have for buying a box other than to apply it to a cable network to receive service? Also, AFAIK, there's nothing that says that VM have to collect the box or it becomes your property.....I could be wrong though.

[Rob]

From the VM Ts & Cs

If we or you end this agreement, or you decide to disconnect from some of our services, E. Using our Equipment

4. If we or you end this agreement, or you decide to disconnect from some of our services, you must return our equipment to us (or let us collect it from you if we choose to do this). You must return equipment or make it available for collection in a reasonable condition, allowing for fair wear and tear. If you fail to return or make available the equipment for collection for any reason, we are entitled to charge you for the replacement cost of the equipment. If we hold any money we may use that money towards the cost of the equipment. If we have supplied you with any additional equipment, we'd encourage you to dispose of it responsibly if you're no longer using it so please contact us for further information about disposing of your additional equipment.

I've emphasised the bold bit. In other words, however difficult VM might make the return of kit, they seem to expect their ex-customer to run through hoops to get the stuff back to them.

[Okonski]

Hate to bust the broad brush of consensus, but my Jerrold Boxes (2) are MY property and I can sell them should I wish. There were provided by NTL in an exchange for my satellite equipment as part of a swap out. At that time, users who bought their receivers subsequently got lower cost programming.

The cost of the programming went up to match those with rented boxes, but I have the receipt to prove that the Jerrold boxes are fully my property.

[Rob M]

Originally Posted by Okonski

Hate to bust the broad brush of consensus[...]

That's ok, because you didn't.

The broad consensus is that boxes which are not the personal property of an individual cannot be sold, because they remain the property of the cable company.

[Graham M]

And besides, those Jerrold boxes aren't gonna be that useful when they turn off the Analogue signal

[Mick]

At the end of the day - whether one can claim the rights to such equipment - the cable company, in this case, Virgin Media - owns the technology which enables these boxes to function as they should, without it they are pretty much useless.

[iglu]

Samsung, Pace or Ambit will not sell you VM boxes/modems wholesale or retail. How did this couple manage to get 250 boxes? And god knows how many they had sold before their arrest.

It looks like an inside job to me.

[Escapee]

Originally Posted by Mick

At the end of the day - whether one can claim the rights to such equipment - the cable company, in this case, Virgin Media - owns the technology which enables these boxes to function as they should, without it they are pretty much useless.

Just to nit pick, Virgin Media are licenced to use the technology, they do not own the technology.

I also understand that at least one fraud case was previousy thrown out of court on a technicality due to ntl's poor assset management. I understand they were not able to prove to the court that they were the legal owners of the equipment.

I bet we wouldn't get a official company recognition of that though.

[Mick]

Originally Posted by iglu

Samsung, Pace or Ambit will not sell you VM boxes/modems wholesale or retail. How did this couple manage to get 250 boxes? And god knows how many they had sold before their arrest.

It looks like an inside job to me.

Let's say in an average month, 20,000 digital TV customers disconnect their TV services from Virgin Media - that's a lot of STB equipment to collect and or to be returned - I doubt all 20,000 STB's will be collected or returned, some will probably get 'lost' in transit or just not returned at all - this is where a large number of boxes end up on the black market.

Originally Posted by Escapee

Just to nit pick, Virgin Media are licenced to use the technology, they do not own the technology.

Fair point.

[iglu]

Originally Posted by Mick

Let's say in an average month, 20,000 digital TV customers disconnect their TV services from Virgin Media - that's a lot of STB equipment to collect and or to be returned - I doubt all 20,000 STB's will be collected or returned, some will probably get 'lost' in transit or just not returned at all - this is where a large number of boxes end up on the black market.

Good point.

It appears that ebay removes all VM/NTL modems/stbs listings within the day...

[arcamalpha2004]

If a customer has ended the contract in relation to the box and they have repeatedly asked VM to pick up the box they can do what they want with it after a set time.

You would think that if VM really feel these boxes are so valuable that they would act sharply in taking them back hence no adverts in the press.

Then again it is only illegal if a person is caught, as in the words of a judge some years ago " You do realise sir that you are not before me today for theft, but because you were caught "